Norways blubber mountain

Reported by Anne Brockhoff (Bloomber News) 'The Vancouver Sun' Dec. 3, 1998

BLUBBER EXPORT BAN RILES NORWEGIANS Although Norway insists on its right to hunt whales in its own waters, it fears world condemnation if ships whale products half way around the world to the Japanese, who love it.

<snip>

Norway has legally lodged the objection to the commercial whaling moratorium. So, it already has the right to continue whaling.

<snip>

As the IWC scientific committee estimated, the population of minke whales in the world is close to one million. It's far from 'Endangered Species'. What is funny is the current CITES listings.

M. Ishida <http://luna.pos.to/whale/>

There are something like five billion people, so we aren't endangered, either. An argument for cannibalism (or feeding the surplus to endangered species like tigers)?

Seriously, whales are intelligent creatures with brains as large or larger than our own. I would be hesitant to consume them for that

Is it agreed among scientists that large brain indicates intelligence?

M. Ishida <http://luna.pos.to/whale/>

In one simple group of Whale Song contains more then 3 million bits of data. I also agree that the Whale is as smart or smarter then us. Just because we can not understand them, does not means that they do not understand us.

Any Whale Pics?

: > larger than our own. I would be hesitant to consume them for that

: Is it agreed among scientists that large brain indicates intelligence?

It certainly is agreed that it's not the case. When it come to brain mass/body mass ratios, I think that the ferret stands out. While there is a correlation between an animal being intelligent (by our definitions) and the brain being massive, a large brain does not imply intelligence.

There's an extensive review by Este Armstrong in 'The human nervous system' about that very question.

Didier

: : > larger than our own. I would be hesitant to consume them for that

: : Is it agreed among scientists that large brain indicates intelligence?

: It certainly is agreed that it's not the case. When it come to brain : mass/body mass ratios, I think that the ferret stands out. While there is : a correlation between an animal being intelligent (by our definitions) and : the brain being massive, a large brain does not imply intelligence.

A large brain does not imply intelligence, but one is required for

=) My husband insists that whales and dolphins, etc. cant possibly be as intelligent as we are because they live in the sea and have no technology. But I think they can be. They have a simple lifestyle. Their only real threat is us. They may have a more philisophical nature than us. I wish we could communicate with them, but we probably wouldnt have very much in common to talk about besides what to do about our teenage offspring and then we couldnt really give each other advice....=)

technology doesn't define intelligence. i think that technology will be the end of us - survived by the whales... of course.

data.

So does a two and a half second belch sampled at 1.5MHz.

I think the general conclusion is that its the surface area of the brain rather than the volume which is an indicator of intelligence. This is because the neural network which is responsible for conscious thought, perception and memory etc. is found around in the cortex of the brain: the size of this is dependent on the surface area rather than the volume. The brains of mammals have more surface ridges (gyri) and furrows (sulci - I bet I've got those the wrong way round!) than do other chordates: this increases the surface area and thus the cortical volume.

Furthermore it may be important to compare the sizes of cerebra relative to body size. Assuming for a moment that the sensitivity of whale skin is similar to ours a whale is going to need far more cortical volume for its somatosensory map (the brain's 'picture' of the body surface) than we will: thus less of its total cortical mass is left for 'higher' thoughts.

I'd feel guilty about finishing off this post without pointing out that intelligence is a term devised by humans largely to measure the abilities of humans (in fact, originally to measure the abilities of western humans subjected to a good education, with the probable side-requirement of furthering the idea that these were THE superior organism) - I think at least one definition does refer to the organisms ability to use complex tools and things like fire (bad luck, Mr. Whale). Any other species to which we compare ourselves will thus be handicapped by having to 'compete on our terms'.

Please note therefore that I'm not saying that whales are more or less intelligent than us: I'm saying that the logic of the reasons you give for their obviously higher intelligence are badly flawed, and also trying (badly) to put across the point that 'intelligence' as defined by the science books should not be thought of as a way of saying whether one species (or individual) is better or worse than any other.

Cheers,

Jon Bray.

Last year (I think) the was a paper in nature describing the tremendously varied song by a particular songbird. The authors demonstrated that a large proportion of this variation was not caused by neuronal control, but by the physical attributes in the bird's larynx. Resonance in the larynx showed chaotic properties, which to a large extent could explain the magnificent variation of the song. These results do of course not 'explain whale-communication away', but should be a reminder that one should be careful and open-minded when looking for causal explanations.

Just an additional point in this context. While the relative size of the neocortex likely is of great importance in this matter, I think many people addressing this issue have neglected the very 'architecture' of the neocortex. -Not only gyri and sulci, but the internal organization of the cortex. If I am correctly informed, the 'neocortex' of whales (and even dolphins) have a simpler transversal architecture than primates. If this means a lower number of neural connections, the ramifications could be substantial.

Cassanders Annuntio vobis gaudeum magnum, habemus cetii